Look, what can I say? We’ve been listening to the podcast and we just felt it was time to make some changes. So I’ve ejected myself from the host’s chair this week. You had to know this day was coming.
But I haven’t gone far, because the guest this week is Paul Wells, here to talk about his new book Justin Trudeau on the Ropes. Which meant we needed a new host. Somebody who knows Ottawa, Justin Trudeau, and me.
I’m grateful that Vassy Kapelos agreed to guest-host. She’s so busy these days she makes me look lazy: She’s the host of CTV’s Question Period, the same network’s weekday Power Play, and the Vassy Kapelos Show on a bunch of iHeart Radio stations coast-to-coast.
If you’re like me, you look at all that and you think, Here’s a woman with lots of spare time. Let’s get her to pro-bono my podcast! We had a blast. Kapelos is soft-spoken, charming, but she prepares for interviews and I’ve heard her gently fillet and gut politicians who thought they were headed for an easy interview. Fortunately I managed not to get on her bad side. We had a blast, her questions got me talking about all the facets of my new essay on Justin Trudeau, and I hope we get to work together again soon.
Here’s my post from Tuesday on the new book for anyone who hasn’t heard, and who’s wondering where they can get a copy. The Paul Wells Show will be back next week, though I greatly fear that quality-control slip-ups will result in that episode being hosted by the regular guy.
You can listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts and a bunch of other platforms via the “Listen On” button that you can see at the top of this post when you view it on your desktop. You can download any episode to listen to it later, via the same “Listen On” button. If you listen on a podcast platform, smash those “Like” and “Subscribe” buttons, and leave a good review, to help spread the word.
You can read a (machine-generated) transcript of this week’s episode via the "Transcript” button at the top of this page when you view it on your desktop browser.
I am grateful to be the journalist fellow-in-residence at the Munk School at the University of Toronto, the principal patron of this podcast. Antica Productions turns these interviews into a podcast every week. Thanks to all of them and to you. Please tell your friends to subscribe to The Paul Wells Show on their favourite podcast app, or here on the newsletter.
Interesting podcast, loved Vassy as guest host. Thanks for that. What I really appreciated was hearing the two of you talking around what you know and building on your individual info. It made for great listening.
Congrats on the book, and for working with Sutherland Press. I read Whyte's blog and love what they are doing.
One small point about the cohesion of the Liberal party... I expect that the PM will go down with the ship in the next election. Party cohesion is best explained, IMO, by no one wanting to lead the party this go around. No one wants to fall to the same fate as Kim Campbell did as first woman PM of Canada but who saw the PC party eviscerated for a generation. She's not remembered for being the first woman to serve as minister of justice in Canadian history, nor the first woman of a NATO member state to become minister of defence... she's remembered for the election. Who wants that?
I can only imagine that you both know this, why not say it out loud...? Uncomfortable truth it is, but it's a better rationale for current party solidarity than gratitude for "rebuilding the party," which may also be true but is less on the nose than the political calculus around leadership and the timing of when to take the leap.
Just my two cents. Thanks for this! Keep going!
Great discussion but as someone once said “it takes great command of language to say nothing” That is my comment concerning the man who is the subject of this book.
Thanks for the insights about your book and about Trudeau. 100 pages - YES! I can learn about all I haven't been paying attention to.
Terrific discussion. I take issue with only one point. Vassy characterized the worst of the feelings out there toward Trudeau as "disdain." Perhaps she was being polite, but I'd characterize it as seething, unthinking hatred. Those are very different emotions and I think they present very different challenges. A person who feels disdain is arguably reachable. Someone filled with unthinking hatred is, I would suggest, not. But I loved the discussion overall. Bring Vassy back if she'll come!
I think you’re right Trevor. People don’t like to be told what to think by someone who gives the impression they feel superior. It’s a dangerous public sentiment that’s cooking these days. We don’t help ourselves when leaders polarize us all even further by finding the political angle on every issue and pushing on it for gain. It’s transparent, and unhelpful. Fomenting the visceral anger you’re pointing to.
Wow, what a great guest this week! Vassy Kapelos was a great as guest-host but she always is.
Thanks Paul & Vassy - I'm on the West Coast - so as far from the Ottawa bubble as I can be ! It's always feels like you live in a completely different country, with different interests and views. Like a lot of my neighbors I simply don't understand the decisions made so far away. So your podcast encouraged me to order the book. I'm not really a fan of any of today's politicians, but I appreciate that you give me some insight into the Ottawa/Gov't world. Thanks
Very interesting podcast. I'm inspired to get the book to learn more about Trudeau, especially since it's presented in such a concise format. I enjoyed reflecting on the contrast between the 'happy days' empathy that Trudeau unexpectedly showed you before the leaders' debate in 2015 and his later, seemingly cold decision to remove Marc Garneau from the cabinet several years later.
Very interesting convo and I will rush out and get your book, Paul. Re Garneau, what was equally perplexing, and perhaps you discuss this in the book, is that after he was dumped from cabinet, there was a lot of official-sounding talk that he was going to be appointed our ambassador to France. And then nothing. What happened?
Thanks Paul. It was a good idea to have Ms.Kapelos host. She is a gifted, highly credible political journalist. I’m beyond convincing that Justin Trudeau should be returned to office but I’m curious about his emotional health, his self awareness, and his judgement. Often, when I’m most convinced he’s emotionally unbalanced ( for instance the Kamloops mass grave, lowered flags incidents) I have a nagging doubt that maybe I’ve got it wrong. Your book sounds like an objective assessment of his personal and intellectual motivations. I ordered it while listening to you and your guest.
I’ve already ordered your book before I listened to this interview. If I hadn’t, I would definitely order it. Thank you for the context of the Liberal Party and Canadian politics on Trudeau. Ironically, I have often used Trudeau’s boxing match with Brazeau as a measure of his character.
I despise the man so I will take her advice and read your book.
I enjoyed the podcast and she is a very good host.
Great podcast.
Finished TRUDEAU ON THE ROPES last night. The last few years I've wanted to bump into you e.g. at an airport and buttonhole you with my One Big Question: how did the Liberals of 2015 become the Liberals of 2024? Your book succinctly and persuasively answers that question. Thanks for writing it!
I can't post on a political substack without offering a (mild) personal political opinion. As a centrist voter (social democratic on some things, market-friendly on others) I've always thought Canada's big advantage among the mature large-ish democracies was that we had a definitionally centrist party. It seems the direction you describe Trudeau and the Liberals are going will lead to the centre's being vacated.
Thanks for your kind note. It's interesting, the notion of the Liberals being Canada's centrist party. I know that was how Jean Chrétien thought of it. He used to talk about how, if you left the middle of the road, you'd get run over. Some of his opponents on the left and, especially, the right have long disagreed.
I remember when Stephen Harper was in trouble with his base for seeming too moderate -- this was the first year or so after he became Canadian Alliance leader, and I was at the National Post so having his base in mind was a big part of my job -- I went to interview him. His message to conservatives was, just hang on, I need to win. But I talked about how the Liberals were a non-ideological brokerage party so it must be rough running against them. He stopped me. "The Liberals aren't non-ideological. They're not middle of the road." He didn't say much more than that, but I've thought about it sometimes since.
Merely as a political consumer I "read" the 2015 Liberals as a Big Tent party, and that their success across the country, including in ridings other parties felt "safe" was a result of that. I've felt bereft by the Liberals' divisive turn (and their lack of delivery TBH)--whom can I vote for?--but I'm just one guy.
Great to have both of you together. Vassy is a total package. Both of you are top notch journalists which is not an easy skill to do well.
Felt like an eavesdropper to a great discussion. Nice.
Un grand merci à Vassy et Paul pour cette entrevue stimulante. Thanks for writing this wonderful essay on the J. Trudeau years. Well worth the read.
Podcasts are not usually my thing however this one is excellent. Home run, Vassy and Paul. Really enjoyed listening to the two of you going back and forth as you each developed your perspectives.
Oh no, should I wait until after I read the book??
Hey Paul, I like Vassy! I can't find a transcript button....
Very interesting discussion......thank you!