I've really enjoyed these commentators and their various perspectives. I've gained respect for parties I've never voted for after hearing their assessments. Thank you , Paul, for expanding my thinking by facilitating this discussion.
Jason Lietaer, as expected : sour grapes and in denial about Poilievre's poor performance, the weak attempts at policy, and the delusion that the "policy" was so significant that Liberals could never have conceived of it themselves.
Instead, Poilievre, the one-trick pony delivered the same misleading nonsense and lies he's habituated, to the same willfully uninformed, afraid and angry mob, but with the addition of post-NDP union people who have suckled on the teat of NDP-championed social democracy all of their lives, but now want to deny those benefits to others.
He needs to go. HE, and his ilk, are the party's problem, having doubled-down on the odious behavior normalized by Harper. He has no mandate and no legitimacy, and in the ongoing battles with Trump America, he is Canada's biggest liability.
"Poilievre, delivered the same misleading nonsense and lies he's habituated, to ... post-NDP union people who have suckled on the teat of NDP-championed social democracy all of their lives, but now want to deny those benefits to others."
I notice you didn't address my question, and I guess you missed the part of the panel where Jason talked about the gains the CPC made in ridings previously held by the NDP. So the working class/blue collar/union vote seems to be heading in the direction of the Conservatives.
Pierre Poilievre ran a fantastic campaign. I attended one of his rallies. Everyone there was energized and left feeling uplifted. What Pierre does for so many of us, and we are close to 8 million strong, is he is our voice in government. Too often politicians come into office for their own benefit, Pierre listens, learns and most importantly represents. Sure, he is not perfect, there are some parts of his campaign I would have changed, but he is human, and allowed to make minor errors in judgment.
Also, keep in mind that Mark Carney during his campaign adopted many of Pierre's policies. Policies the Conservatives formulated after listening to the people.
Why you want to write insulting descriptors serves no purpose whatsoever.
Carney stole many of Pierre's policies. If they are good enough for Carney are they not good enough for Pierre? What sour grapes from Jason? He said conservatives are frustrated. Good thing these panelists are much less partisan and have an open mind about other parties. Unlike some of the commenters here.
The panelists are professional partisans. When they pick a party, typically they mate for life.
On policy, what we heard from Poilievre were opinions and slogans. The notion of "policy" requires considerably more than that.
And NO, Carney did not steal Pierre's homework. Firstly, political ideas don't actually carry ownership in that way. But significantly, most of Pierre's ideas were boneheaded, and of no value. What remained were hardly so unique and brilliant that people the world over were gobsmacked that no one had ever thought of them before.
In his ability to consolidate more voters behind a conservative vision than any leader since Diefenbaker in '58, while thoroughly repelling an overwhelming majority of voters and galvanizing a plurality of them behind a once-moribund LPC, I think he's the greatest asset the party has had in sixty years. Specifically, the Liberal Party. As a Canadian, I'd like MAGA types off the stage; as a partisan Liberal, I hope he leads the CPC for another sixty or seventy years.
You said much of what I wanted to say! I will forever be shocked that all Poilievre's "brilliant ideas" weren't already formulated into a policy document. They could have used that to frame the conversations and to push the Liberals. Instead, they released a half-assed platform at the very last moment possible. It seems like an opportunity lost to me.
Marci is right. No honeymoon period for PM MC. It is like he is going straight to the third leg of the triathlon. First leg was the liberal leadership race, the second was the election campaign. Now, he dives straight into the 4 or 5 very important issues that Canada needs to address.
Excellent panel - thanks for the discussions over the election period.
One comment from Allison really struck home for me. That is the question of ideology. Canadians, it seems to me, are not particularly ideological. To true believers this is no doubt pathetic and a moral failing, but most NDP supporters are not Marxist-Leninists; most Tories are not fascists; and most Liberals are not woke ivory tower dwellers not of Planet Earth. Efforts to appeal to these strands of thought are futile and disconcerting to most Canadians.
If you are a true believer, then this notion is an anathema, no doubt.
However, as Allison pointed out, she is not particularly wedded to some strands of NDP class warrior ideas, and notes that the party, bizarrely, has difficulty talking sensibly to Joe and Mary Six Pack. The same applies to the other two parties. Carney absolutely has to disassociate himself from the Trudeau legacy of sanctimony and paternalism, spiced with a fairly stiff dose of arrogance regarding all their various ideas and policies, opposition to which implies you are a moron and an unenlightened one at that. The Tories need to embrace their inner Progressive Conservative roots, instead of kicking it to the curb, or they will never appeal to the Maritimers, Quebec, much of urban Ontario and much of urban BC. The socially conservative predilections of the Conservative Party's Reform roots are uncongenial to much of Canada and explains, it seems to me, their perennial inability to win national power. The despised O'Toole was the way to power not withstanding his apostasy. It's been four losses in a row - how many more lessons to the Tories need? Five? Six?
I found the olive branch offerings from Saskatchewan and Alberta today very encouraging. Carney needs to seize the opening and do his damnedest meet these two halfway. Carney also needs to get rid of more than a quarter to a third of the cabinet ministers he inherited and make it half to three-quarters. The Liberals will only succeed with their mandate if the Trudeau era is buried. And, a Cabinet of 20-25 ministers would be a start.
The new government has many serious challenges ahead. It will need all the goodwill from all Canadians to surmount them and it has to earn that goodwill. The election was the easy part, governing is going to be very tough indeed.
The challenge for Carney will be to hew to the centrist policy image on which he seemed to be campaigning. I’m not so sure, with his previous commitment to net zero and his stable of returning Trudeau acolytes lining up for their former cabinet posts. I’m not ready yet to call it a hidden agenda, but it’s going to be hard for him to keep his cabinet small and tightly focussed on building.
At the same time, the Conservatives need to pour some water into their partisan wine and instead look seriously at supporting what reasonable policies PM Carney puts on the table. The threat to the Canadian economy (and ergo our independent nation status) posed by the Trumpster is real and must be met by a Canada First effort. For a change.
I appreciated Allison's contributions especially on the panel. Even-handed, self-reflective. A good model for conservatives. Jason sounds reasonable, but you could sense the tension with reluctance this time around to critique anything (beyond the "we beat up on the NDP too much before their incompetence lost them the election" general statement). Hoping that reflective conservative voices come through over the next while, even if they strategically decide to set up for an early election (that they'll probably win). Even if we accept the Conservative's performance being really strong overall, we can still recognize the work they put in additional to Trump that scared NDP and Bloc voters to the liberals. There were unforced errors here (e.g., Do YoU bElIeVe ThE pOlLs???, 'just some protesters over there,' some of the tightest media discipline/lack of engagement, etc.) as well as past mistakes (e.g., maybe people in Ottawa didn't appreciate the truckers as much...). We can recognize their superior grasp of genuine anger and generational issues without accepting the bullshit. Ah well, let's see how things settle out especially with the bright Conservative partisans who engage more widely with media - of which I'm including Jason in!
We will soon learn how serious Carney is about change by the big issue roadmap that lays in front of him. First, one economy not 13 by Canada Day. Second, a commitment with Alberta‘s blessing to build a transnational pipeline with the same level of government support the Canada used to build a transnational railway in the 1880s. Third, a massive commitment to Arctic security.
Her point wasn't that our system doesn't allow for someone to be opposition leader without a seat, but that it is impossible to *effectively* be an opposition leader without a seat. She also immediately pointed out that this is why Carney called the election so soon after becoming Prime Minister, because he wouldn't be able to effectively lead as Prime Minister without being in the Commons.
Appreciated the observation of Alison about the Tories and NDP failing to live up to the brokerage template, that they’re ideologically rigid. Right? Poilievre only held the lead as long as he controlled the narrative, which he did by dint of unending crass, nasty berating. He never saw a bridge that wouldn’t look better reduced to ashes.
Pierre Poilievre with his wife at his side crisscrossed the country during the campaign, and especially went all out the last week. At his stops his supporters came out in the thousands to cheer him on. Why? Because he gave voice to their concerns. No other party leader had any turnouts close to Poilievre's numbers. He was the only one who identified with their concerns and gave them hope.
This week close to 8 million Canadians placed their trust in Poilievre, and we are sad it was not to be -- hopefully another time.
Kudos to Mr Keller for tossing his hat into the ring. Condolences as to the result, but as Teddy Roosevelt said, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.
Irrelevant. The historic convention is that the government calls a by-election without delay and does not run a candidate against the Opposition party leader. Let’s hope for a continuation of that noble gesture so that we can get on with the running of the country without that distraction.
I've really enjoyed these commentators and their various perspectives. I've gained respect for parties I've never voted for after hearing their assessments. Thank you , Paul, for expanding my thinking by facilitating this discussion.
I agree, I too really like the composition of the panel. Everyone is generous towards the other, which is refreshing.
Jason Lietaer, as expected : sour grapes and in denial about Poilievre's poor performance, the weak attempts at policy, and the delusion that the "policy" was so significant that Liberals could never have conceived of it themselves.
Instead, Poilievre, the one-trick pony delivered the same misleading nonsense and lies he's habituated, to the same willfully uninformed, afraid and angry mob, but with the addition of post-NDP union people who have suckled on the teat of NDP-championed social democracy all of their lives, but now want to deny those benefits to others.
He needs to go. HE, and his ilk, are the party's problem, having doubled-down on the odious behavior normalized by Harper. He has no mandate and no legitimacy, and in the ongoing battles with Trump America, he is Canada's biggest liability.
If what you say was accurate, then why did the CPC increase its number of seats by 20%, and also increase its percentage of the popular vote?
to paraphrase:
"Poilievre, delivered the same misleading nonsense and lies he's habituated, to ... post-NDP union people who have suckled on the teat of NDP-championed social democracy all of their lives, but now want to deny those benefits to others."
I notice you didn't address my question, and I guess you missed the part of the panel where Jason talked about the gains the CPC made in ridings previously held by the NDP. So the working class/blue collar/union vote seems to be heading in the direction of the Conservatives.
For an optimist, you are a very negative person.
Pierre Poilievre ran a fantastic campaign. I attended one of his rallies. Everyone there was energized and left feeling uplifted. What Pierre does for so many of us, and we are close to 8 million strong, is he is our voice in government. Too often politicians come into office for their own benefit, Pierre listens, learns and most importantly represents. Sure, he is not perfect, there are some parts of his campaign I would have changed, but he is human, and allowed to make minor errors in judgment.
Also, keep in mind that Mark Carney during his campaign adopted many of Pierre's policies. Policies the Conservatives formulated after listening to the people.
Why you want to write insulting descriptors serves no purpose whatsoever.
Carney stole many of Pierre's policies. If they are good enough for Carney are they not good enough for Pierre? What sour grapes from Jason? He said conservatives are frustrated. Good thing these panelists are much less partisan and have an open mind about other parties. Unlike some of the commenters here.
The panelists are professional partisans. When they pick a party, typically they mate for life.
On policy, what we heard from Poilievre were opinions and slogans. The notion of "policy" requires considerably more than that.
And NO, Carney did not steal Pierre's homework. Firstly, political ideas don't actually carry ownership in that way. But significantly, most of Pierre's ideas were boneheaded, and of no value. What remained were hardly so unique and brilliant that people the world over were gobsmacked that no one had ever thought of them before.
In his ability to consolidate more voters behind a conservative vision than any leader since Diefenbaker in '58, while thoroughly repelling an overwhelming majority of voters and galvanizing a plurality of them behind a once-moribund LPC, I think he's the greatest asset the party has had in sixty years. Specifically, the Liberal Party. As a Canadian, I'd like MAGA types off the stage; as a partisan Liberal, I hope he leads the CPC for another sixty or seventy years.
You said much of what I wanted to say! I will forever be shocked that all Poilievre's "brilliant ideas" weren't already formulated into a policy document. They could have used that to frame the conversations and to push the Liberals. Instead, they released a half-assed platform at the very last moment possible. It seems like an opportunity lost to me.
Marci is right. No honeymoon period for PM MC. It is like he is going straight to the third leg of the triathlon. First leg was the liberal leadership race, the second was the election campaign. Now, he dives straight into the 4 or 5 very important issues that Canada needs to address.
He needs all the good vibes we can send his way.
Great panel throughout the campaign. Three perspectives, but not too partisan, unlike many others.
Kill Bill Vol 2 not Mad Max 😍 The Five Point Exploding Heart Technique
Excellent panel - thanks for the discussions over the election period.
One comment from Allison really struck home for me. That is the question of ideology. Canadians, it seems to me, are not particularly ideological. To true believers this is no doubt pathetic and a moral failing, but most NDP supporters are not Marxist-Leninists; most Tories are not fascists; and most Liberals are not woke ivory tower dwellers not of Planet Earth. Efforts to appeal to these strands of thought are futile and disconcerting to most Canadians.
If you are a true believer, then this notion is an anathema, no doubt.
However, as Allison pointed out, she is not particularly wedded to some strands of NDP class warrior ideas, and notes that the party, bizarrely, has difficulty talking sensibly to Joe and Mary Six Pack. The same applies to the other two parties. Carney absolutely has to disassociate himself from the Trudeau legacy of sanctimony and paternalism, spiced with a fairly stiff dose of arrogance regarding all their various ideas and policies, opposition to which implies you are a moron and an unenlightened one at that. The Tories need to embrace their inner Progressive Conservative roots, instead of kicking it to the curb, or they will never appeal to the Maritimers, Quebec, much of urban Ontario and much of urban BC. The socially conservative predilections of the Conservative Party's Reform roots are uncongenial to much of Canada and explains, it seems to me, their perennial inability to win national power. The despised O'Toole was the way to power not withstanding his apostasy. It's been four losses in a row - how many more lessons to the Tories need? Five? Six?
I found the olive branch offerings from Saskatchewan and Alberta today very encouraging. Carney needs to seize the opening and do his damnedest meet these two halfway. Carney also needs to get rid of more than a quarter to a third of the cabinet ministers he inherited and make it half to three-quarters. The Liberals will only succeed with their mandate if the Trudeau era is buried. And, a Cabinet of 20-25 ministers would be a start.
The new government has many serious challenges ahead. It will need all the goodwill from all Canadians to surmount them and it has to earn that goodwill. The election was the easy part, governing is going to be very tough indeed.
Great points on the need to aim for the centre.
The challenge for Carney will be to hew to the centrist policy image on which he seemed to be campaigning. I’m not so sure, with his previous commitment to net zero and his stable of returning Trudeau acolytes lining up for their former cabinet posts. I’m not ready yet to call it a hidden agenda, but it’s going to be hard for him to keep his cabinet small and tightly focussed on building.
At the same time, the Conservatives need to pour some water into their partisan wine and instead look seriously at supporting what reasonable policies PM Carney puts on the table. The threat to the Canadian economy (and ergo our independent nation status) posed by the Trumpster is real and must be met by a Canada First effort. For a change.
I appreciated Allison's contributions especially on the panel. Even-handed, self-reflective. A good model for conservatives. Jason sounds reasonable, but you could sense the tension with reluctance this time around to critique anything (beyond the "we beat up on the NDP too much before their incompetence lost them the election" general statement). Hoping that reflective conservative voices come through over the next while, even if they strategically decide to set up for an early election (that they'll probably win). Even if we accept the Conservative's performance being really strong overall, we can still recognize the work they put in additional to Trump that scared NDP and Bloc voters to the liberals. There were unforced errors here (e.g., Do YoU bElIeVe ThE pOlLs???, 'just some protesters over there,' some of the tightest media discipline/lack of engagement, etc.) as well as past mistakes (e.g., maybe people in Ottawa didn't appreciate the truckers as much...). We can recognize their superior grasp of genuine anger and generational issues without accepting the bullshit. Ah well, let's see how things settle out especially with the bright Conservative partisans who engage more widely with media - of which I'm including Jason in!
We will soon learn how serious Carney is about change by the big issue roadmap that lays in front of him. First, one economy not 13 by Canada Day. Second, a commitment with Alberta‘s blessing to build a transnational pipeline with the same level of government support the Canada used to build a transnational railway in the 1880s. Third, a massive commitment to Arctic security.
Marci's comment was interesting - in which she notes that it is difficult if not impossible for someone to be an Opposition Leader without a seat.
NO problem being PM without a seat however...
Interesting how our rules work.
Marci literally pointed that out. Literally. That was her very next comment.
Her point wasn't that our system doesn't allow for someone to be opposition leader without a seat, but that it is impossible to *effectively* be an opposition leader without a seat. She also immediately pointed out that this is why Carney called the election so soon after becoming Prime Minister, because he wouldn't be able to effectively lead as Prime Minister without being in the Commons.
Thanks Paul and panel members for such excellent commentary and insight.
Appreciated the observation of Alison about the Tories and NDP failing to live up to the brokerage template, that they’re ideologically rigid. Right? Poilievre only held the lead as long as he controlled the narrative, which he did by dint of unending crass, nasty berating. He never saw a bridge that wouldn’t look better reduced to ashes.
I'm having a hard time characterizing Poilievre's performance during the last week as statesman-like. The words Canadian Carnage come to mind.
Canadian Carnage? How so?
Pierre Poilievre with his wife at his side crisscrossed the country during the campaign, and especially went all out the last week. At his stops his supporters came out in the thousands to cheer him on. Why? Because he gave voice to their concerns. No other party leader had any turnouts close to Poilievre's numbers. He was the only one who identified with their concerns and gave them hope.
This week close to 8 million Canadians placed their trust in Poilievre, and we are sad it was not to be -- hopefully another time.
The punctuation is important here. This is a reference to Trump's inaugral in 2017, dubbed American Carnage.
Kudos to Mr Keller for tossing his hat into the ring. Condolences as to the result, but as Teddy Roosevelt said, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.
Jason is a calming salve on Monday’s results. However I won’t be a proud Canadian puffing out my chest viewing G7 leaders visiting our shores.
More cringe of woke that I can bear. Maybe next year.
Whither Donald Trump?
About the by-election, you need to ask yourself what would Polievre do?
Irrelevant. The historic convention is that the government calls a by-election without delay and does not run a candidate against the Opposition party leader. Let’s hope for a continuation of that noble gesture so that we can get on with the running of the country without that distraction.