Definitely an interesting interview in that Marci as a loyal Liberal tried to be objective in her assessment of the Liberal government's running of Canada since 2015, and how the political party is faring today.
Some comments:
Marci Surkes says that at the time of the 2015 election she felt people were supporting Trudeau and wanting him to succeed. Some people for sure, but only 39.5% of those who voted. First past the post gives the governing party a false sense of support for its policies.
Marci Surkes acknowledges that the early election of 2021 was in essence called because the Trudeau Liberals felt it was an opportune time to go the polls and receive their anticipated reward of a majority government for their handling of the COVID pandemic. Instead their vote count decreased, again. What the Liberals failed to realize is that many Canadians were fed-up with the mandates, and Justin Trudeau's daily news conference on the steps of Rideau Cottage was viewed by many as too paternalistic.
Lastly, Marci Surkes, like all Trudeau Liberals, ignores the fact that the $10/day Day care, Dental and Pharma care programs would not have come about except for pressure from the NDP. Not initiated by the Trudeau Liberal government. Only implemented to keep the Trudeau government in power. As Chrystia Freeland described, political gimmicks.
Interesting note: Today is easily the biggest day for podcast downloads since I started anchoring the pod on my Substack in fall 2023. Part of it is that this Marci Surkes interview is unusually popular — in a day it's had more downloads than 20 other episodes have in the entire time since they were posted — but also because the entire archive is drawing more listeners. So today's healthy numbers are the sum of the Surkes episode, plus downloads from the pod's accumulated archive as listeners catch up.
As a lifelong western Canadian, (and a fairly new senior), I hate to say this, but it is only too clear that this country is too big and vast to be ruled by the Ottawa bubble. I enjoyed the interview Paul, but Justin Trudeau has left this country more divided than ever, his seeming willingness and glee to divide and conquer, is what will be his legacy. (In my opinion)
This upcoming election will be pivitol for Canada, because the DEI/settler/colonial narrative that Canadians have been inundated with for the last 9 years has made being a proud Canadian very challenging. Not sure some days if I’m aCanadian first or an Albertan first.
How did the Liberals get here? By worshiping at a shrine that should not have been worshipped.
A lot of Atlantic Canada feels much the same... it has been very hard to be proud of Canada under Trudeau's constant grievance scolding, wedging, and endless (for Canada) stream of scandals. That the Liberals are blind to how weary Canadians are of this speaks volumes.
I visited Quebec City as a Torontonian a few months ago for the first time since my youth. From my Toronto bubble, all of the language law controversies I read about seemed silly. But being there, I was really struck by the sense that a shared culture has been intentionally, protectively nurtured. And it made me so sad that nobody has been doing that cultural caretaking here in the place where my children are growing up. I grew up with folk tales that made me feel like I was part of an unfolding story. But Laura Secord is just a chocolate shop now, and the land acknowledgements (which I was initially game for) increasingly feel like anti-Canada propaganda.
And, I, Doug, as an "experienced" senior am quite certain that I have been forced by the federal government [please note: not MY federal government!] to choose to be an Albertan first and a Canadian only by accident of birth.
Not one mention of what I think is the biggest messes he made, which were the firing of JWR, and the circumstances surrounding the resignation of Morneau. In my mind those were pivotal moments, and along with the complete lack of movement on fixing housing and infrastructure issues on reserves, times when his credibility took a nosedive.
That's not even getting into the first warning, when he pulled back on electoral reform. I bet he's regretting that one now!
It's entirely fair to want that covered in some sort of definitive account of Trudeau's time in office, but having spent the last year talking myself very near unto death about my BOOK on the topic, I thought today I'd talk to this other person about some other stuff.
Yea, I get that there are a lot of rabbit holes wide open you could have jumped down, but in my mind those were more pivotal than any others in his inevitable demise.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to have these conversations, and to make them accessible for those of us who prefer reading them.
Electoral reform and the SNC Lavalin scandal were definitely the biggest burns against expectations that Trudeau pulled off. But Trudeau may have dug his grave even sooner than either of those incidents when he diminished the institutional strength of the Liberal Party with the 2016 constitutional amendments that he pushed for: https://www.readtheline.ca/p/stefan-klietsch-how-justin-trudeau
As a westerner (Manitoban) the disconnect of the LPC from anything west of Sault Ste Marie is breathtaking! I'm old enough to remember PET and having his son come in to run the GoC was not welcomed at all from Canadians in the hinterlands.
Did Ms. Surkes and her cohorts ever step foot out of the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle? Listening to this interview I suspect not very often.
The Marci Sturkes interview is an exhibit the self-congratulatory, self-centred, holier-than-thou liberal tendencies. While I found the interview deeply disturbing, it is timely to have this reminder of how the Laurentian elite landed (and abandoned) us in the current mess.
Thanks for this…its always good to have the context from someone on the inside who doesn’t also think that everything was always rosy. I particularly appreciated her take on JT as an individual. There will be lots of time for post mortems but this was a good recap of the past few years , the Limo anecdote was a good one and a cautionary tale for whoever is next
Hate to cast shade on this excellent interview...but Marci, not every Canadian thought that Justin Trudeau was an emperor in waiting or even knew who he was. Sheesh, get out of your bubble.
That said, it's a great idea to listen and truly hear the thoughts of a Liberal stalwart.
You had me at "not every Canadian thought Justin Trudeau was an emperor in waiting" - with voter turnout where it was and Liberal vote share where it was, it was more like "one in five Canadians thought Justin Trudeau might be an improvement over Stephen Harper, while four in five did not think that, or did not feel strongly enough about thinking that to vote for him." But I'm not sure about "or even knew who he was" - do you know a lot of people who don't know who Justin Trudeau is? He's got to be as close to 100% name recognition, at least in Canada, as any human can be.
Fascinating interview with Marci Surkes - thank you, Paul. I'm sure a more detailed version will be coming as a book, which I'd definitely read. She's had an interesting view of the world inside the Liberal bubble. She was certainly inside it for a long time, and checks a lot of the boxes to rise up and stay within that bubble - from Montreal, Quebec (check), attended McGill (check), background and experience in law and the media (check).
I'm not intending that as criticism against Ms. Surkes, as I respect her insight and talents, which are in great evidence in this and other interviews. She would be an asset to any government, and in fact, the Conservatives would do well to have her work for them, assuming they do form the next government. She'd certainly be able to call out their more boneheaded instincts. These Liberals should have had one of the Harper government's former aides in their War Room to do the same. It could become a necessary feature of governments in the future - the I Call Bullshit Advisor.
I guess it should be unsurprising that these Liberals seem incapable of grasping that their vision of Canada - their values, their policies, their priorities - are not shared by the majority of this country, and never were shared by scarcely more than just over a third of them.
That myopia, coupled with a barely concealed indifference or disdain for anyone that did not share their background, their world view, is why this government is so undeeply unpopular, and why any government in Canada eventually becomes so, as our history suggests.
Canada is much bigger, much more diverse in culture and outlook, than any political party can possibly conceive or contain. I suspect the Conservatives will find this out sooner or (likely) sometime within the next decade.
Not sure where that leaves us, honestly. The world is, as Paul and Marci point out, becoming a hotter, much more dangerous place again. The world climate is indeed heating up, and I don't mean in terms of our contributions to greenhouse gas emissions (unless we are including political rhetoric). Our tribal natures are reasserting themselves, with a vengence.
I wish we were (much) better prepared than we are.
I was ready to argue your third and fourth paragraphs until I got to your fifth and further, and now I think we may broadly agree here.
We've got a government that was elected with thirty-some percent of the vote. Our next government is likely to be elected with forty-some percent of the vote. Yet there's a new-ish skein running through our politics which I absolutely hate, and it's not unique to one side or the other - "Anyone who disagrees with me isn't just *wrong*, but fundamentally *illegitimate*. They're 'wacko'. They're 'fake news'. They're Russian propaganda." And don't get me wrong---I'm all for spirited disagreement. I'm all for thinking the other guy's ideas are bad - I'm all for thinking the other guy is a bad guy, even. That's not where I draw the line. I draw the line at thinking the other guy doesn't meaningfully exist.
I don't know how someone can run a country when:
1. they completely delegitimize those who don't share their views;
Marci's recollection of time in Sparks Street 3rd party offices still rings clarion true 30 years later. Much appreciated her clear-eyed view of the task ahead for next LPC leader, perhaps affecting view of possible contenders.
I have huge respect for Marci Surkes. That said, it was disappointing to hear so much about Justin Trudeau and so little about the Liberals. How did it happen that the Liberal Party became Justin Trudeau? The influence of American style democracy has been a negative one not only on our politics but on those of other liberal democracies, and was evident in Canada long before the arrival of Justin; nor is it confined to the Liberals. But how did we get from Ignatieff calling on the wisdom of Peter Donolo to Justin Trudeau jettisoning historic Liberal hands and essentially obliterating the party? The historical context was great as far as it went, but I wanted more Liberals, less Trudeau. I would love to hear Marci's take - for example - on who the disaffected Liberals are and why they have had little or no influence on the PM and the government.
Marci Surkes makes a strong point about how JT is a good listener, a good person to be briefing. That strengthens my conviction that his continuing deceit about electoral reform -- that ranked ballots is the right and only way to proceed -- is based solely on partisan considerations. It is impossible to believe that his advisors would not have told him that ranked ballots would be good for the Liberal Party.
A careful look inside the Liberal Party mindset in the Justin Trudeau era. The loss of Trudeau's ability to read the room of ordinary citizens was touched on but not explored deeply. I recognize that Justin Trudeau was a good reader of the citizenry even though he did not reach me personally. But he lost it by 2019 and especially 2021. She seemed to think that handing money out is the answer always. Anyway I would have liked a bit more zeroing in on why JT lost the citizenry by 2021 if not earlier.
Definitely an interesting interview in that Marci as a loyal Liberal tried to be objective in her assessment of the Liberal government's running of Canada since 2015, and how the political party is faring today.
Some comments:
Marci Surkes says that at the time of the 2015 election she felt people were supporting Trudeau and wanting him to succeed. Some people for sure, but only 39.5% of those who voted. First past the post gives the governing party a false sense of support for its policies.
Marci Surkes acknowledges that the early election of 2021 was in essence called because the Trudeau Liberals felt it was an opportune time to go the polls and receive their anticipated reward of a majority government for their handling of the COVID pandemic. Instead their vote count decreased, again. What the Liberals failed to realize is that many Canadians were fed-up with the mandates, and Justin Trudeau's daily news conference on the steps of Rideau Cottage was viewed by many as too paternalistic.
Lastly, Marci Surkes, like all Trudeau Liberals, ignores the fact that the $10/day Day care, Dental and Pharma care programs would not have come about except for pressure from the NDP. Not initiated by the Trudeau Liberal government. Only implemented to keep the Trudeau government in power. As Chrystia Freeland described, political gimmicks.
Interesting note: Today is easily the biggest day for podcast downloads since I started anchoring the pod on my Substack in fall 2023. Part of it is that this Marci Surkes interview is unusually popular — in a day it's had more downloads than 20 other episodes have in the entire time since they were posted — but also because the entire archive is drawing more listeners. So today's healthy numbers are the sum of the Surkes episode, plus downloads from the pod's accumulated archive as listeners catch up.
As a lifelong western Canadian, (and a fairly new senior), I hate to say this, but it is only too clear that this country is too big and vast to be ruled by the Ottawa bubble. I enjoyed the interview Paul, but Justin Trudeau has left this country more divided than ever, his seeming willingness and glee to divide and conquer, is what will be his legacy. (In my opinion)
This upcoming election will be pivitol for Canada, because the DEI/settler/colonial narrative that Canadians have been inundated with for the last 9 years has made being a proud Canadian very challenging. Not sure some days if I’m aCanadian first or an Albertan first.
How did the Liberals get here? By worshiping at a shrine that should not have been worshipped.
A lot of Atlantic Canada feels much the same... it has been very hard to be proud of Canada under Trudeau's constant grievance scolding, wedging, and endless (for Canada) stream of scandals. That the Liberals are blind to how weary Canadians are of this speaks volumes.
I visited Quebec City as a Torontonian a few months ago for the first time since my youth. From my Toronto bubble, all of the language law controversies I read about seemed silly. But being there, I was really struck by the sense that a shared culture has been intentionally, protectively nurtured. And it made me so sad that nobody has been doing that cultural caretaking here in the place where my children are growing up. I grew up with folk tales that made me feel like I was part of an unfolding story. But Laura Secord is just a chocolate shop now, and the land acknowledgements (which I was initially game for) increasingly feel like anti-Canada propaganda.
And, I, Doug, as an "experienced" senior am quite certain that I have been forced by the federal government [please note: not MY federal government!] to choose to be an Albertan first and a Canadian only by accident of birth.
Not one mention of what I think is the biggest messes he made, which were the firing of JWR, and the circumstances surrounding the resignation of Morneau. In my mind those were pivotal moments, and along with the complete lack of movement on fixing housing and infrastructure issues on reserves, times when his credibility took a nosedive.
That's not even getting into the first warning, when he pulled back on electoral reform. I bet he's regretting that one now!
It's entirely fair to want that covered in some sort of definitive account of Trudeau's time in office, but having spent the last year talking myself very near unto death about my BOOK on the topic, I thought today I'd talk to this other person about some other stuff.
Yea, I get that there are a lot of rabbit holes wide open you could have jumped down, but in my mind those were more pivotal than any others in his inevitable demise.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to have these conversations, and to make them accessible for those of us who prefer reading them.
Electoral reform and the SNC Lavalin scandal were definitely the biggest burns against expectations that Trudeau pulled off. But Trudeau may have dug his grave even sooner than either of those incidents when he diminished the institutional strength of the Liberal Party with the 2016 constitutional amendments that he pushed for: https://www.readtheline.ca/p/stefan-klietsch-how-justin-trudeau
As a westerner (Manitoban) the disconnect of the LPC from anything west of Sault Ste Marie is breathtaking! I'm old enough to remember PET and having his son come in to run the GoC was not welcomed at all from Canadians in the hinterlands.
Did Ms. Surkes and her cohorts ever step foot out of the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle? Listening to this interview I suspect not very often.
The Marci Sturkes interview is an exhibit the self-congratulatory, self-centred, holier-than-thou liberal tendencies. While I found the interview deeply disturbing, it is timely to have this reminder of how the Laurentian elite landed (and abandoned) us in the current mess.
Solid interview with a very articulate guest. Context always helps - and this is what you get with this discussion.
I agree with you 100%. The reason I subscribe Mr. Wells's Substack is because of the context. Keep it up.
Thanks for this…its always good to have the context from someone on the inside who doesn’t also think that everything was always rosy. I particularly appreciated her take on JT as an individual. There will be lots of time for post mortems but this was a good recap of the past few years , the Limo anecdote was a good one and a cautionary tale for whoever is next
Hate to cast shade on this excellent interview...but Marci, not every Canadian thought that Justin Trudeau was an emperor in waiting or even knew who he was. Sheesh, get out of your bubble.
That said, it's a great idea to listen and truly hear the thoughts of a Liberal stalwart.
You had me at "not every Canadian thought Justin Trudeau was an emperor in waiting" - with voter turnout where it was and Liberal vote share where it was, it was more like "one in five Canadians thought Justin Trudeau might be an improvement over Stephen Harper, while four in five did not think that, or did not feel strongly enough about thinking that to vote for him." But I'm not sure about "or even knew who he was" - do you know a lot of people who don't know who Justin Trudeau is? He's got to be as close to 100% name recognition, at least in Canada, as any human can be.
Great interview and insight. Thank you.
Fascinating interview with Marci Surkes - thank you, Paul. I'm sure a more detailed version will be coming as a book, which I'd definitely read. She's had an interesting view of the world inside the Liberal bubble. She was certainly inside it for a long time, and checks a lot of the boxes to rise up and stay within that bubble - from Montreal, Quebec (check), attended McGill (check), background and experience in law and the media (check).
I'm not intending that as criticism against Ms. Surkes, as I respect her insight and talents, which are in great evidence in this and other interviews. She would be an asset to any government, and in fact, the Conservatives would do well to have her work for them, assuming they do form the next government. She'd certainly be able to call out their more boneheaded instincts. These Liberals should have had one of the Harper government's former aides in their War Room to do the same. It could become a necessary feature of governments in the future - the I Call Bullshit Advisor.
I guess it should be unsurprising that these Liberals seem incapable of grasping that their vision of Canada - their values, their policies, their priorities - are not shared by the majority of this country, and never were shared by scarcely more than just over a third of them.
That myopia, coupled with a barely concealed indifference or disdain for anyone that did not share their background, their world view, is why this government is so undeeply unpopular, and why any government in Canada eventually becomes so, as our history suggests.
https://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/1867-present.html
Canada is much bigger, much more diverse in culture and outlook, than any political party can possibly conceive or contain. I suspect the Conservatives will find this out sooner or (likely) sometime within the next decade.
Not sure where that leaves us, honestly. The world is, as Paul and Marci point out, becoming a hotter, much more dangerous place again. The world climate is indeed heating up, and I don't mean in terms of our contributions to greenhouse gas emissions (unless we are including political rhetoric). Our tribal natures are reasserting themselves, with a vengence.
I wish we were (much) better prepared than we are.
I was ready to argue your third and fourth paragraphs until I got to your fifth and further, and now I think we may broadly agree here.
We've got a government that was elected with thirty-some percent of the vote. Our next government is likely to be elected with forty-some percent of the vote. Yet there's a new-ish skein running through our politics which I absolutely hate, and it's not unique to one side or the other - "Anyone who disagrees with me isn't just *wrong*, but fundamentally *illegitimate*. They're 'wacko'. They're 'fake news'. They're Russian propaganda." And don't get me wrong---I'm all for spirited disagreement. I'm all for thinking the other guy's ideas are bad - I'm all for thinking the other guy is a bad guy, even. That's not where I draw the line. I draw the line at thinking the other guy doesn't meaningfully exist.
I don't know how someone can run a country when:
1. they completely delegitimize those who don't share their views;
2. most of the country doesn't share their views.
It's a recipe for...well, nothing good.
Marci's recollection of time in Sparks Street 3rd party offices still rings clarion true 30 years later. Much appreciated her clear-eyed view of the task ahead for next LPC leader, perhaps affecting view of possible contenders.
I have huge respect for Marci Surkes. That said, it was disappointing to hear so much about Justin Trudeau and so little about the Liberals. How did it happen that the Liberal Party became Justin Trudeau? The influence of American style democracy has been a negative one not only on our politics but on those of other liberal democracies, and was evident in Canada long before the arrival of Justin; nor is it confined to the Liberals. But how did we get from Ignatieff calling on the wisdom of Peter Donolo to Justin Trudeau jettisoning historic Liberal hands and essentially obliterating the party? The historical context was great as far as it went, but I wanted more Liberals, less Trudeau. I would love to hear Marci's take - for example - on who the disaffected Liberals are and why they have had little or no influence on the PM and the government.
Marci Surkes makes a strong point about how JT is a good listener, a good person to be briefing. That strengthens my conviction that his continuing deceit about electoral reform -- that ranked ballots is the right and only way to proceed -- is based solely on partisan considerations. It is impossible to believe that his advisors would not have told him that ranked ballots would be good for the Liberal Party.
A careful look inside the Liberal Party mindset in the Justin Trudeau era. The loss of Trudeau's ability to read the room of ordinary citizens was touched on but not explored deeply. I recognize that Justin Trudeau was a good reader of the citizenry even though he did not reach me personally. But he lost it by 2019 and especially 2021. She seemed to think that handing money out is the answer always. Anyway I would have liked a bit more zeroing in on why JT lost the citizenry by 2021 if not earlier.
It's interesting to get actual first-hand observation. I suspect other people shared my preconception that he wasn't a very good listener.