63 Comments
User's avatar
Jennifer Ditchburn's avatar

What's that? It's the sound of political scientists across the country gleefully taking notes. It's important to have senior campaign people explain what happened during elections -- for the history books, but also so that it pulls back the curtain for the public. Thank you.

Expand full comment
Nobina Robinson's avatar

Important ‘get’ or ‘gets’ here Paul. Great job. There was little acknowledgement about the deep and precarious

divide in the country from the ‘red team’ advisors, but for sure, they offered insights into the tumultuous last 100+ days. Let’s hope the guests took back to their leaders the point about doing more interviews in Canada with Canadian journalists. Unifying Canada means talking with Canadians without stump speeches and slogans, just like all these three guests did.

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

My guess: Carney will be away from Parliament (Europe, Asia, etc.) far more than he'll be there. Why? Because being there means facing the opposition and he's notoriously thin-skinned. He'll get destroyed daily in the House. So he'll have reasons to not be there. And I think we'll see another election by this time next year -- unless the Liberals are able to bring enough NDP or Conservative members into their party to push them over 172.

Expand full comment
Louise Teasdale's avatar

His carbon print will be huge and his ministers will do his job, after all they have been there for 10 years.

Expand full comment
Louise Teasdale's avatar

Unrelated but...in this side of the country we think you were right last night on Radio Can when you said One more week of campaign would have made a big difference in the results.

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

1000%! Two more weeks and I think we may have seen a Conservative majority. Poilievre waited too long to be a statesman instead of an attack dog. Sad.

Expand full comment
SimulatedKnave's avatar

He defaults to attack dog way, way, way too often. I don't know if it's because he likes it, he thinks it's a good idea, or he isn't really capable of being statesmanlike for sustained periods. None are good, though.

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

We'll see if that changes now.

Expand full comment
Andre L Pelletier's avatar

Do leopards suddenly change their spots?

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

Not unless they’re those newfangled gekko SOB (south of Bloor) leopards.

😉

Expand full comment
Louise Teasdale's avatar

Carney was otherwise occupied the last 2 weeks, anything but answering questions was on his agenda.

Expand full comment
Tim's avatar

The one question to Butts I was waiting for that didn’t come is whether his involvement in the Carney campaign was a liability in light of his role with Trudeau and the SNC-JWR affair.

Expand full comment
Neil P.'s avatar

“A man is known by the company he keeps”

― Aesop

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears?

Expand full comment
Tim's avatar

It’s why I didn’t vote for Trudeau after 2015, and caused me some hesitation voting for Carney this time……..but decided to give Carney a chance!

Expand full comment
Craig Yirush's avatar

This, exactly

Expand full comment
A Canuck's avatar

What an excellent set of interviews. All three of your interviewees were fascinating--my perspective on Gerry Butts in particular has changed as a consequence of your discussion with him.

Thank you.

And, BTW, Mr Bevan seems to be proof positive that one can "take the boy out of Wales, but can't take Wales out of the boy". I hope my "accent analysis" was correct.

Expand full comment
Andrew Bevan's avatar

Yep, circuitously

Expand full comment
A Canuck's avatar

My late Mum was born in Wales. And, yes, same accent. Thank you for your candour during the interview.

Expand full comment
D. Joe Irvine's avatar

Thanks Paul. Getting these articulate politicos of both stripes to your podcast/Substack is why I subscribe. Your thoughtful questions and analysis are greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work!

Expand full comment
Art Chamberlain's avatar

Three great interviews. I think Poilievre should take Butts' advice and go get a job for a decade. He could still come back in his mid-50s, with his Parliamentary pension as a backstop

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

Yeah because Butts has so much room to talk. He's never been outside of an NGO, political party machine, or some form of lobbyist.

Expand full comment
Sean's avatar

Oh god, Gerald Butts has an opinion on whos an adult and who isn't. He always bats 100

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

If he truly believed that, he'd never have worked for Justin Trudeau. My gosh, what a moronic thing for him to say.

Expand full comment
Sharon Lott's avatar

Would not waste my time listening to Butts.

Expand full comment
Paul Wells's avatar

I checked, and it is indeed optional.

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

Ignore him if you want. You'd be missing valuable insight on how the Liberal party "thinks."

Expand full comment
Sharon Lott's avatar

It is quite clear how the Liberal party thinks and it isn't my cup of tea. I just wonder if the dirty tricks extend to their home life and other relationships. Scary.

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

Not my cup of tea either. However, to defeat an enemy, one must understand the enemy.

Expand full comment
Sharon Lott's avatar

I have been watching these people and their dirty tricks for 10 years. Sometimes enough is enough.

Expand full comment
Ken Schultz's avatar

I must totally apologize for doubting you, Sir!

I read your headline of "Butts, Bevan, Aitchison" and I was taken aback. [I am 74 years old - it matters as you will see.] I definitely understood the reference to Gerry Butts but Aneurin Bevan????? and Dean Acheson [I wrongly spelled Aitchison in my mind]; so why one current Canadian political type and one American politician from the fifties and one British politician also from the fifties? Like I say, I am old.

Truth is, when I moved down on the written material I discovered my (many) errors. Now to further read and listen.

Expand full comment
Andrew Bevan's avatar

I'm no relation of Nye's. Though wish I was!

Expand full comment
Talking Pie's avatar

This was very interesting, thanks! One thing I find surprising is how no one is questioning the recent narrative that Carney only went for the leadership after the Trump crisis began. We’ve all heard that he was openly positioning and manoeuvring for the leadership for a couple years before, right? This is just a good but fictional narrative for the campaign.

Expand full comment
Paul Wells's avatar

There's a good chance you're right. But Carney had also declined to get onto the dance floor a few times before — when Catherine McKenna vacated Ottawa Centre in 2021, when Trudeau was in the market for a new finance minister in 2022 and 2024. I know there were people organizing on his behalf. I've also seen people back out despite such preliminary effort.

Expand full comment
Talking Pie's avatar

Fair, good points.

Expand full comment
Mik Ball's avatar

Canada’s future will be much the same as it’s past - a steadily increasing number of Canadians will continue to feel someone else should provide the standard of living they demand.

Expand full comment
Tom Eagles's avatar

Butts said that his advice to Carney was to "go out and answer questions." I guess Carney didn't get the memo. Furthermore, Butts said Carney is one of the 2 or 3 smartest people he's ever met. Wow. I guess we'll see how "smart" Carney is when Parliament resumes.

Carney's propensity for lying wasn't mentioned by any of the three interviewees. I think that's an unfortunate oversight because there are several glaring lies Carney told during the leadership campaign and during the election.

God bless all the candidates for running in the 343 ridings across the country. And particularly those who ran and lost. It's going to be very interesting to see if Poilievre or the Conservative party needs to convince someone to step aside for him (likely in Alberta?) or if someone volunteers ("volunteers"?). I cannot imagine how much angst and work goes into running a campaign. To be asked to step aside after all that? Wow.

I just wish the election would have run for another two weeks. If it had, we'd have a different party in power.

Expand full comment
John Leonard's avatar

Nice to hear that Carney doesn't suffer fools gladly. This will be invaluable in forming a cabinet, but it will be tested when negotiating with Trump.

Expand full comment
Peter Marshall's avatar

Mr Wells, sir:-> Frankly, ... I think that you omitted the REAL Svengeli:---> Katie Telford:- the now, (12 years) as:- Der Fuhrer:- ...>(still); ...> of the PMO Chief of Staff- ... now; forever. Peter D. Marshall, Oakville

Expand full comment
Clara's avatar

Gerald Butts worked in the private sector? Is that what he's calling his time with the wildlife federation? Because apparently that was 20 years ago, then he was in politics for over a decade, if I'm understanding correctly. I'm taking that take on his resume with a grain of salt...but what a chameleon. Not a word about the environment, which I thought was his driving passion. He's right out of "Yes, Minister".

I don't really understand why people who have been intimately involved with politics and politicians feel they have to denigrate it as a profession, or why experience should be detrimental, in a unique departure from any other line of work. If anything, I wish there were more people who were more adept at getting legislation through, or even discussing a proposed law rationally.

Expand full comment
David's avatar

I am rather disappointed Mr. Wells did not challenge Butts. His environmental policies brought down the McGuinty government, and drove up the price of electricity in Ontario. It was the "Deer in the headlights" comment that angered me. Remember Trudeau's 'post nation" or SNC Lavalin, the lowering of the Canadian flag for months. Trudeau kneeling with a teddy bear on an abandoned septic field. The freezing of Canadian bank accounts without judicial oversight.

True, Butts was forced out of his role as Principal Secretary but anybody who feels there wasn't a Svengali in Trudeau's office hasn't paid attention

Expand full comment
George's avatar

Agreed, Clara - I really dislike that politics is so widely seen as a prize you get for being good at something else (or for having a rich dad).

Expand full comment