Of all the dumb NDP ideas through the years, public grocery stores are the stupidest yet. The profit margins earned by publically traded grocers like Loblaws are in the mid single digits. This is amongst the lowest profitability of all industries. It is also indisputable fact. Sure grocery retailing is concentrated, but two of the players are Costco and Walmart, ferocious margin compressors like the world has never seen. If Lewis were truely concerned about grocery costs, he would advocate for ending Supply Management or harmonizing food safety and labeling with the US. Of course thst wouldn't play well with the trade union base.
You may be right but I am not entirely convinced. Even if we stipulate to the margins, we obviously need to do something about the concentration - which you rightly point to - and the rather healthy profits amid all the rising costs - which you do not. We can't just do nothing because the profit margins are slim. Anyway, I think we can agree it's a nonstarter under the current administration. Let's see if the NYC socialists can make some hay with the idea.
The profits aren't healthy. No company is going to risk capital to make 6% as they could almost do that risk free on government bonds. The real opportunities are to end supply management and harmonize food safety requirements with the US. Of course neither will happen as that would threaten Laurentian jobs.
A far more effective, yet also more challenging, effort would be policy changes to raise the value of CAD as many inputs to food production and even the end products price in USD: dramatically lower deficits, deregulation and tax cuts. Of course these are unlikely to happen, largely for the same reason as above.
Agreed about government grocery stores being a really dumb idea - and that's without considering how badly the federal government does so many other things, like answer our individual questions about our tax returns. And then there's passports - has that timeline been fixed? And getting the airlines to pay up for delays? And the wait times on so many other public services? These are the wrong people to ask for efficiency solutions.
Glad to hear it has finally been fixed. For background, passports were very slow for years before the pandemic. They used to be so bad that members of parliament had regular 'clinics' where they took all the particulars from constituents at their constituency offices, and then shepherded the applications through Ottawa directly. It was considered a valuable service. Possibly this was just a rural phenomenon? It was in any case a Canadian phenomenon, and it was longstanding.
Next, the tax department?
Whatever, please don't let them near my salad dressing.
I don't understand why Avi Lewis is talking so emphatically about government grocery stores while 'surveillance pricing' is something that the federal government is actually equipped to deal with, and has the research already at hand. I understand the NDP put a motion/bill (not sure) before Parliament but had the bad sense to require unanimous consent. (Ref, Leni Spooner's substack.) This has the whiff of political posturing, not a solution.
First time listening to more than sound bites from Mr Lewis.
In the middle of the interview he says the ‘market’ is broken. I would disagree with that. The market is working brilliantly to extract as much money as possible from individuals. The efficiency of the market. For many people it feels like the late part of a monopoly game, but they can’t get up and leave the table.
Haven’t been an NDP supporter but will be listening more going forward.
The market is not broken. The free market and capitalism has improved the standard of living for all at a pace and level never achieved at any time in the recorded history of humanity. We abandon the market at our peril.
Rentier extraction is the modus operandi of emergent technocratic neofeudalism, and the loss of market forces and property rights, where the entitlements of class/guild and contract take precedence.
"You will own nothing and you will be happy".
We are witnessing a sleight of hand by the alliance of technocrats and corporatists to deceive the public as they shift market and political power for their benefit.
While I remain skeptical about some of his proposals, I thought this was a thoughtful and substantive interview. Good for Lewis for agreeing to do this; a good get by Paul. Hope the “other” federal leader follows suit…and post haste, even though he prefers youtube… Wish there had been time for questions about the state of Canada-US relations, or future prospects in the same, or some foreign policy discussion around the “next world order”; while one can guess what Lewis’ responses might have been on these topics, he would have spoken intelligently.
I am a fan of Paul Wells and his varied guest list. In this interview I was disappointed that he did not ask Mr. Lewis more fundamental and ideological questions about redistribution of income and government ownership. The discussion did dance around these issues but gave Mr. Lewis every opportunity to dress up these fundamental issues as free stuff for Canadians. The question of who pays for these policies was never pursued.
I’m really enjoying your long form podcast interviews, Paul. This was quite interesting. I’m not sure how Lewis’ ideas are going to land electorally but he’s definitely clear about the space he wants to fill in Canadian politics — which is a refreshing change from the Singh and Mulcair NDP. Carney appears to have left that space wide open. We’ll see if Canadian voters agree.
I've historically had quite a snide, negative opinion of Avi Lewis, but this interview really impressed me.
I think my negative view of Lewis is partly because I saw him as one of a string of nepo babies (before we had that term) getting prominent jobs at the CBC in the 90s. I really questioned if they would have all been hired to such jobs if not for the fact that they were the children of prominent Canadians. And it rubbed me the wrong way. The other reason for my negative view was that I was not impressed by his views or approach to his various CBC shows like CounterSpin and The Big Picture - he seemed rather run-of-the-mill ideological and a predictable knee-jerk lefty. I'm really in the middle, with a focus on policy solutions regardless of the side of the spectrum they come from. So, not a fan of ideologically-driven same old-same-old arguments and ideas.
But, this interview impressed. He is a very clear and likeable communicator, and he appears to have the right approach to re-building the party. I think the party will do better with him as leader - how much, I'm not sure. This post-Trump Liberal vs. Conservative polarization may have serious legs, but Carney is leaving A LOT of room on his left flank for the NDP to reclaim voters.
I think he has the right policy focus too. Surveillance pricing is a good one - no-brainer, slam dunk. The government grocery store idea was something I laughed at and criticized, but he communicates it well and makes it sound plausible. It also conveys the message that he cares about affordability and will do bold things on that issue. The challenge for him will be to get his version of it out there, in the face of media and establishment laughingly sloughing it off. I still oppose this concept. I don't think it's a drop in the bucket to spend what he wants to spend here - and it always costs government more than they estimate. Why not funnel the more than a billion dollars this will cost (for setup and functioning, after 2-3 years) into existing tax credits and our food banks - which this is a fancy, less economical version of? Grocery store margins are incredibly low - it's a volume game. (And BTW, it's not a monopoly as he says - there are a number of large conglomerates as well as mom-and-pops.) I don't see how his government model can get better, more competitive pricing than the larger, buy-more conglomerates - it's a wish and a hope that I don't think will transpire. And, the thing no one talks about: the politics of these 50 stores - if government set them up, people would inevitably complain that they don't have one near them, that the prices and selection are not good, forcing government to build more and subsidize prices more etc etc etc. It would be a nightmare.
Anyway, I was surprised by Lewis in this interview. Hadn't seen much of him since the 90s, when I was very down on him. Saw the Leap Manifesto, and that seemed like such pie-in-the-sky extreme ideology... so it didn't change my view. But, this interview seemed to show someone that had matured, was focussed on action and policy and results over ideology, and ... a very good, likeable communicator with a sound approach to re-building and re-organizing his party. The NDP may have chosen well. Carney will need to consider Lewis a real threat to attracting votes from the left.
More competition is good. So it would be a good idea for government to offer a competition to privately owned grocery stores. Now what about allowing private clinics to offer a competition to the government-run health care system?
Hope the NDP can also push ‘right to repair’ legislation forward. Crazy how car, appliance, and farm equipment manufacturers are making it so you can’t fix what you own.
So are manufacturers going to create easier to repair models specifically for the Canadian market? Again, NDP naivete shines through. Right to Repair legislation could only be pushed through by a government that can influence significant volume, that being the US government.
Agree fully we’re too small a market. But some things can be legislated. For example, requiring John Deere to share maintenance diagnostic codes and information with equipment owners. Or on subscriptions, requiring that car manufacturers are NOT allowed to charge subscription fees for features that are built into a car a person owns. And as others say, alignment with EU laws and regulations would go a long way.
Legislation requiring disclosure of diagnostic codes would make sense.
Subscription features are a different issue. Government has no reason to dictate business models. If customers aren't willing to pay for a subscription feature, they won't. Government interference would be like like banning car manufacturers from offering leases or financing.
It's happening in the EU this summer. US adoption of common-sense "public goods" is not a dependency for most things in Canada any longer, so the "we've tried nothing and are all out of ideas" approach won't be enough.
The EU successfully standardized USB C for charging to reduce ewaste. It represented enough of the global market to force all manufacturers (Apple being the main opposer) to follow suit in the absence of similar legislation around the world.
The point being that Canada has insufficient sway to move any market. The NDP is stupid.
Appreciate the interview and letting Lewis make his case. His frame is interesting and more compelling than Singh’s. But as someone not at home on the left, I’m always struck when they frame “the market” as always the problem when we have a mixed economy with plenty of government involvement. And there’s no acknowledgement that some of our biggest “market failures” are caused by governments - housing shortages, childcare shortages, passport wait times, overflowing park garbage cans, family doctor shortages, and so on.
If you want to make the world a better place, you have to properly identify the problems. And if your answer is always “government good, private sector bad” then you’re going to get a lot of problems wrong.
My first exposure to Avi Lewis et al was when they rolled into Alberta and took down the NDP's chance of remaining in government. I listened to Notley and Lewis's speeches in their entirety, and it was clear, in the moment, how it would end, and that they didn't care about finding workable solutions to real problems - it was doctrine uber alles. Avi Lewis in this interview doesn't sound like he's changed. Too bad - I was hoping for a good alternative.
Articulate, earnest, sincere, thoughtful. You can't counterfeit that, and it has a limited shelf life before the Machine takes its toll, so they need to use it to do big things fast.
I appreciated the "public grocery store" model he described. It passes at least the superficial credibility test. More of these proposals answering the "Five Ws" (that the Conservatives never bother with), would be key.
I gather he believes that he can take votes away from the Conservatives. Let's hope so, because the alternative is dilution of the progressive vote that leads to Conservative governments. That fear alone may be Avi's biggest challenge.
Great interview. It is great to hear a new group of politicians who actually discuss ideas and have opinions on serious questions. Doesn’t matter if I agree with them.
Thank you so much for posting a video of your discussion with Avi Lewis. Not all of his ideas make sense, but the way he talked about many issues make me believe that Mr Carney needs to watch out. The NDP may not be the force it was under Jack, but enough folks will like Avi's approach to vote NDP. Avi has matured well and will present a challenge to both Mr Carney and Mr Poilievre. Thank you again this.
I don't disagree with Mr. Lewis about the surveillance pricing, but I wonder how he feels (actually I'm pretty sure how he feels) about this in regard to taxation. You know governments who say "well you're smart, successful and hardworking so we are going to tax the hell out of you."
Take property taxes for example, you can have houses on the same street or within blocks of each other, who have wildly different assessed values, but who receive exactly the same services from the city (water, sewer, garbage, snow plowing etc.), and yet pay different amounts of property tax. In many cases it could be young people who overpaid for their house and have a huge mortgage, or older retired people with minimal incomes who live in a house that is overpriced strictly due to the latest round of inflation.
Watching on YouTube. (Always messing with your stats a bit...) I love these interviews you've done recently! His ideology aside, I appreciate how direct and candid Avi Lewis is. The years of advocacy show in his level of polish.
Of all the dumb NDP ideas through the years, public grocery stores are the stupidest yet. The profit margins earned by publically traded grocers like Loblaws are in the mid single digits. This is amongst the lowest profitability of all industries. It is also indisputable fact. Sure grocery retailing is concentrated, but two of the players are Costco and Walmart, ferocious margin compressors like the world has never seen. If Lewis were truely concerned about grocery costs, he would advocate for ending Supply Management or harmonizing food safety and labeling with the US. Of course thst wouldn't play well with the trade union base.
You may be right but I am not entirely convinced. Even if we stipulate to the margins, we obviously need to do something about the concentration - which you rightly point to - and the rather healthy profits amid all the rising costs - which you do not. We can't just do nothing because the profit margins are slim. Anyway, I think we can agree it's a nonstarter under the current administration. Let's see if the NYC socialists can make some hay with the idea.
The profits aren't healthy. No company is going to risk capital to make 6% as they could almost do that risk free on government bonds. The real opportunities are to end supply management and harmonize food safety requirements with the US. Of course neither will happen as that would threaten Laurentian jobs.
A far more effective, yet also more challenging, effort would be policy changes to raise the value of CAD as many inputs to food production and even the end products price in USD: dramatically lower deficits, deregulation and tax cuts. Of course these are unlikely to happen, largely for the same reason as above.
Agreed about government grocery stores being a really dumb idea - and that's without considering how badly the federal government does so many other things, like answer our individual questions about our tax returns. And then there's passports - has that timeline been fixed? And getting the airlines to pay up for delays? And the wait times on so many other public services? These are the wrong people to ask for efficiency solutions.
FYI: Passports are quite fast again - that delay was during the pandemic.
Glad to hear it has finally been fixed. For background, passports were very slow for years before the pandemic. They used to be so bad that members of parliament had regular 'clinics' where they took all the particulars from constituents at their constituency offices, and then shepherded the applications through Ottawa directly. It was considered a valuable service. Possibly this was just a rural phenomenon? It was in any case a Canadian phenomenon, and it was longstanding.
Next, the tax department?
Whatever, please don't let them near my salad dressing.
I don't understand why Avi Lewis is talking so emphatically about government grocery stores while 'surveillance pricing' is something that the federal government is actually equipped to deal with, and has the research already at hand. I understand the NDP put a motion/bill (not sure) before Parliament but had the bad sense to require unanimous consent. (Ref, Leni Spooner's substack.) This has the whiff of political posturing, not a solution.
Very interesting interview.
First time listening to more than sound bites from Mr Lewis.
In the middle of the interview he says the ‘market’ is broken. I would disagree with that. The market is working brilliantly to extract as much money as possible from individuals. The efficiency of the market. For many people it feels like the late part of a monopoly game, but they can’t get up and leave the table.
Haven’t been an NDP supporter but will be listening more going forward.
The market is not broken. The free market and capitalism has improved the standard of living for all at a pace and level never achieved at any time in the recorded history of humanity. We abandon the market at our peril.
Rentier extraction is the modus operandi of emergent technocratic neofeudalism, and the loss of market forces and property rights, where the entitlements of class/guild and contract take precedence.
"You will own nothing and you will be happy".
We are witnessing a sleight of hand by the alliance of technocrats and corporatists to deceive the public as they shift market and political power for their benefit.
While I remain skeptical about some of his proposals, I thought this was a thoughtful and substantive interview. Good for Lewis for agreeing to do this; a good get by Paul. Hope the “other” federal leader follows suit…and post haste, even though he prefers youtube… Wish there had been time for questions about the state of Canada-US relations, or future prospects in the same, or some foreign policy discussion around the “next world order”; while one can guess what Lewis’ responses might have been on these topics, he would have spoken intelligently.
I am a fan of Paul Wells and his varied guest list. In this interview I was disappointed that he did not ask Mr. Lewis more fundamental and ideological questions about redistribution of income and government ownership. The discussion did dance around these issues but gave Mr. Lewis every opportunity to dress up these fundamental issues as free stuff for Canadians. The question of who pays for these policies was never pursued.
I’m really enjoying your long form podcast interviews, Paul. This was quite interesting. I’m not sure how Lewis’ ideas are going to land electorally but he’s definitely clear about the space he wants to fill in Canadian politics — which is a refreshing change from the Singh and Mulcair NDP. Carney appears to have left that space wide open. We’ll see if Canadian voters agree.
A really useful interview. Yes, to multi-party options.
I've historically had quite a snide, negative opinion of Avi Lewis, but this interview really impressed me.
I think my negative view of Lewis is partly because I saw him as one of a string of nepo babies (before we had that term) getting prominent jobs at the CBC in the 90s. I really questioned if they would have all been hired to such jobs if not for the fact that they were the children of prominent Canadians. And it rubbed me the wrong way. The other reason for my negative view was that I was not impressed by his views or approach to his various CBC shows like CounterSpin and The Big Picture - he seemed rather run-of-the-mill ideological and a predictable knee-jerk lefty. I'm really in the middle, with a focus on policy solutions regardless of the side of the spectrum they come from. So, not a fan of ideologically-driven same old-same-old arguments and ideas.
But, this interview impressed. He is a very clear and likeable communicator, and he appears to have the right approach to re-building the party. I think the party will do better with him as leader - how much, I'm not sure. This post-Trump Liberal vs. Conservative polarization may have serious legs, but Carney is leaving A LOT of room on his left flank for the NDP to reclaim voters.
I think he has the right policy focus too. Surveillance pricing is a good one - no-brainer, slam dunk. The government grocery store idea was something I laughed at and criticized, but he communicates it well and makes it sound plausible. It also conveys the message that he cares about affordability and will do bold things on that issue. The challenge for him will be to get his version of it out there, in the face of media and establishment laughingly sloughing it off. I still oppose this concept. I don't think it's a drop in the bucket to spend what he wants to spend here - and it always costs government more than they estimate. Why not funnel the more than a billion dollars this will cost (for setup and functioning, after 2-3 years) into existing tax credits and our food banks - which this is a fancy, less economical version of? Grocery store margins are incredibly low - it's a volume game. (And BTW, it's not a monopoly as he says - there are a number of large conglomerates as well as mom-and-pops.) I don't see how his government model can get better, more competitive pricing than the larger, buy-more conglomerates - it's a wish and a hope that I don't think will transpire. And, the thing no one talks about: the politics of these 50 stores - if government set them up, people would inevitably complain that they don't have one near them, that the prices and selection are not good, forcing government to build more and subsidize prices more etc etc etc. It would be a nightmare.
Anyway, I was surprised by Lewis in this interview. Hadn't seen much of him since the 90s, when I was very down on him. Saw the Leap Manifesto, and that seemed like such pie-in-the-sky extreme ideology... so it didn't change my view. But, this interview seemed to show someone that had matured, was focussed on action and policy and results over ideology, and ... a very good, likeable communicator with a sound approach to re-building and re-organizing his party. The NDP may have chosen well. Carney will need to consider Lewis a real threat to attracting votes from the left.
More competition is good. So it would be a good idea for government to offer a competition to privately owned grocery stores. Now what about allowing private clinics to offer a competition to the government-run health care system?
Hope the NDP can also push ‘right to repair’ legislation forward. Crazy how car, appliance, and farm equipment manufacturers are making it so you can’t fix what you own.
So are manufacturers going to create easier to repair models specifically for the Canadian market? Again, NDP naivete shines through. Right to Repair legislation could only be pushed through by a government that can influence significant volume, that being the US government.
Agree fully we’re too small a market. But some things can be legislated. For example, requiring John Deere to share maintenance diagnostic codes and information with equipment owners. Or on subscriptions, requiring that car manufacturers are NOT allowed to charge subscription fees for features that are built into a car a person owns. And as others say, alignment with EU laws and regulations would go a long way.
Legislation requiring disclosure of diagnostic codes would make sense.
Subscription features are a different issue. Government has no reason to dictate business models. If customers aren't willing to pay for a subscription feature, they won't. Government interference would be like like banning car manufacturers from offering leases or financing.
It's happening in the EU this summer. US adoption of common-sense "public goods" is not a dependency for most things in Canada any longer, so the "we've tried nothing and are all out of ideas" approach won't be enough.
The EU is a large market. Canada is not.
Canada can ride those coat-tails, if need be
Agreed.
The EU successfully standardized USB C for charging to reduce ewaste. It represented enough of the global market to force all manufacturers (Apple being the main opposer) to follow suit in the absence of similar legislation around the world.
The point being that Canada has insufficient sway to move any market. The NDP is stupid.
You should tune into CPAC at 5:30pm today to watch debate on Bill C-267.
Appreciate the interview and letting Lewis make his case. His frame is interesting and more compelling than Singh’s. But as someone not at home on the left, I’m always struck when they frame “the market” as always the problem when we have a mixed economy with plenty of government involvement. And there’s no acknowledgement that some of our biggest “market failures” are caused by governments - housing shortages, childcare shortages, passport wait times, overflowing park garbage cans, family doctor shortages, and so on.
If you want to make the world a better place, you have to properly identify the problems. And if your answer is always “government good, private sector bad” then you’re going to get a lot of problems wrong.
My first exposure to Avi Lewis et al was when they rolled into Alberta and took down the NDP's chance of remaining in government. I listened to Notley and Lewis's speeches in their entirety, and it was clear, in the moment, how it would end, and that they didn't care about finding workable solutions to real problems - it was doctrine uber alles. Avi Lewis in this interview doesn't sound like he's changed. Too bad - I was hoping for a good alternative.
Articulate, earnest, sincere, thoughtful. You can't counterfeit that, and it has a limited shelf life before the Machine takes its toll, so they need to use it to do big things fast.
I appreciated the "public grocery store" model he described. It passes at least the superficial credibility test. More of these proposals answering the "Five Ws" (that the Conservatives never bother with), would be key.
I gather he believes that he can take votes away from the Conservatives. Let's hope so, because the alternative is dilution of the progressive vote that leads to Conservative governments. That fear alone may be Avi's biggest challenge.
Great interview. It is great to hear a new group of politicians who actually discuss ideas and have opinions on serious questions. Doesn’t matter if I agree with them.
Thank you so much for posting a video of your discussion with Avi Lewis. Not all of his ideas make sense, but the way he talked about many issues make me believe that Mr Carney needs to watch out. The NDP may not be the force it was under Jack, but enough folks will like Avi's approach to vote NDP. Avi has matured well and will present a challenge to both Mr Carney and Mr Poilievre. Thank you again this.
I don't disagree with Mr. Lewis about the surveillance pricing, but I wonder how he feels (actually I'm pretty sure how he feels) about this in regard to taxation. You know governments who say "well you're smart, successful and hardworking so we are going to tax the hell out of you."
Take property taxes for example, you can have houses on the same street or within blocks of each other, who have wildly different assessed values, but who receive exactly the same services from the city (water, sewer, garbage, snow plowing etc.), and yet pay different amounts of property tax. In many cases it could be young people who overpaid for their house and have a huge mortgage, or older retired people with minimal incomes who live in a house that is overpriced strictly due to the latest round of inflation.
Watching on YouTube. (Always messing with your stats a bit...) I love these interviews you've done recently! His ideology aside, I appreciate how direct and candid Avi Lewis is. The years of advocacy show in his level of polish.