"That's not slow moving"

Germany's ambassador to Canada on Ukraine, turbines and Canada as an energy exporter — just not right away

 

Like you, I did not expect turbines would be on the exam. But the Trudeau government’s decision to waive export restrictions for Russian-owned turbines puts Canada right in the middle of a dispute between Ukraine and Germany over sanctions against Russia. Volodymyr Zelensky is furious, the World Ukrainian Congress is suing Canada, and this all looks more like a preview of coming attractions than like a one-off.

I called Sabine Sparwasser, Germany’s ambassador to Canada, who’s an old acquaintance and has held previous postings in Canada, off and on, since 2003. Full video of our talk is above, edited transcript below.

I asked about the turbines; about the widespread perception that Chancellor Olaf Scholz is reluctant to send heavy weapons into a war at his doorstep; about the pressure from elements of German civil society urging him to be reluctant to send weapons; and about the broader energy relationship between Germany, which needs lots of energy, and Canada, which used to brag about having lots to export. Sparwasser said Germany’s really interested in Canada as an eventual source of green hydrogen. Liquefied natural gas (LNG), not so much.

On Twitter the other night, you wrote that this file, the import-export waiver for these turbines, is difficult for Canada. What makes it difficult?

We're in a situation where both governments have to make so many dilemma-decisions. There are no good decisions anymore. And obviously, the dilemma for the Canadian government was to allow the export of the turbines while Canada has [imposed] sanctions against energy equipment. But at the same time, it has become clear that this was an unintended sanction. Germany, the EU, and the United States would not have this equipment under sanctions. Canada did.

Obviously we want to impose the hardest sanction possible on Russia, and make it really feel the price of this horrible aggression against Ukraine. But on the other side, we also want to have smart sanctions. We want to have sanctions that hurt Russia more than they hurt us. And this turbine is an essential part of continuing the provision of gas through the pipeline Nordstream One to Europe.

Now, we want to get independent from Russian gas. And actually, Germany has made enormous headway. We are down from 55% dependence on Russian gas to something like 33% dependent. In a very short time, we've managed to diversify, to buy more [from] partners like Norway and the Netherlands. We've been able to save a lot of gas. And we're building out our renewable infrastructure, at an unheard-of speed. All of that is happening, and we want to get out totally. But in the meantime, what gas there has been flowing up to now from Russia, is still quite important to fill the reservoirs in Europe. 

President Zelensky of Ukraine has not been shy about saying he does not like this decision at all. He's the guy whose country has been invaded. Should that not be the end of the debate?

I understand the despair of Ukrainians. And I've been talking with my colleague, the new Ukrainian ambassador, about the difference of positions. I don't think there's any doubt about the allies’ dedication to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

But it's a tactical difference. Ukraine says, ‘Cut off everything right now.’ But we say we need to be strong. We need to keep our ability to support Ukraine. In the long run, we need to keep our economies running. And we need to keep our populations on board. So while our target is the same -- supporting Ukraine -- I think the decisions we take on the political level, on how we go about it best, are different.

As Germany tries to diversify its sources of energy, does Canada's obvious ambivalence on exporting its natural gas constitute an obstacle to Germany's efforts?

We look towards Canada as a medium-term, long-term provider for us of energy. And very preferably, green energy. Clean energy. Both of our countries are deeply devoted to our net-zero targets. And Canada has an enormous potential to become, for example, a prime hydrogen provider, for Germany. Germany will be a country that will need enormous amounts of hydrogen in order to keep our industry going. Somebody has mentioned the number, four times Churchill Falls. I can't even imagine how much that might be. But we will have to import hydrogen, preferably green hydrogen. Canada is a vast country. Offshore and onshore wind farms could provide so much green hydrogen.

In the meantime, we will need, as a transitional energy, LNG. Short term, obviously, right now Canada is not a partner that we can look for.

You say nobody questions the West’s resolve in the Ukraine conflict. Is that resolve solid, indefinitely? This invasion is now five months old. Can the Western alliance stick together for another five months, or five years?

I would certainly hope so. It is true that people's attention span wanes. But I think if you look at the facts of the Western alliance supporting Ukraine, it's been absolutely stellar. I mean, the Americans have been leading the effort and they have been sending enormous amounts of support. I suspect Germany would be number two, when it comes to financial support, which I think is beyond 4 billion, [and] when it comes to delivering military goods, including heavy weapons.

At the same time, there have been criticisms of Germany's response regarding the delivery of heavy weapons. Chancellor Scholz gives the impression of being reluctant. And there are strong voices within Germany saying, that should not be Germany's role, to send heavy arms into combat. Is the new administration in Germany slow-marching on that, to respond to those pressures?

Well, let's put it this way. We had the attack against Ukraine on the 24th of February. Two days later, the Chancellor convened Parliament. He announced that we would change our policy on weaponry exports, in the case of Ukraine, totally 180 degrees. From not delivering weaponry into conflict zones, he went to, ‘We will support with weapons.’ He said, ‘We want to wean ourselves from Russian energy in the fastest possible way — by building up our renewable energy, by diversifying, but also by changing our economy.’ We will not only meet our 2% target, we will put aside 100 billion euros in order to help build up a European security [capability] that is able to defend itself against Russia. And we Germany will invest into building out our own defenses.

That's not slow moving. That was within two days of the attack. And yes, we are a country where we have a strong pacifist undertone, Germany has it. And it has it for good reasons. We have been, you know, at the origin of two world wars. And in Germany, the idea of participating or being active again, in a war in Europe is very, very difficult. And so you do have debates. But I think after the Chancellor spoke, that was in February, and maybe numbers have changed a bit. But 80% of the population said that's the right thing to do, even though it was a 180-degree shift.

You’ve been busy not only dealing with this specific file, but in general, because the Chancellor is coming to Canada in five weeks. I assume both Ukraine and the energy partnership are going to be key components of the discussions when he's here?

 The Chancellor and the prime minister have known each other for a long time. So the context is also, in this tougher, conflictual environment in which we're living globally, what can like-minded nations like ours do? To have leverage, to make things better, to stick together so we can we persist and compete in the future.

And the big subjects, obviously: our energy; more self-sufficiency of our supply chains; the big subject, how do we fight inflation? And also, how do we support our populations during a time where a recession is a real threat?

And when it comes to energy, we already mentioned hydrogen in particular, and LNG. And another point where Canada has everything in its ground somewhere that China or Russia have, but that needs to be explored, is natural resources and critical minerals.